Gun Control in Your Country

[sydneyfan]

OKay, today is the 10th anniversary of the Port Arthur massacre here - for those who don't know, a guy named Martin Bryant shot and killed 33 people at Port Arthur, wounding I don't know how many more. Victims were random, he was just a crazy guy with a stash of semi-automatic weapons.

The day after Port Arthur happened, our PM banned all automatic and semi automatic weapons, along with a bunch of other restrictions. Our gun laws are now amongst the toughest in the world, and we like that just fine.

Just curious as to what the rules are where you're from and whether you support them. The US in particular seems to have a real problem with guns, yet it seems - at least from an outsider's perspective - that successive government's haven't done much about it.

[Rosebud]

The U.S. has a real problem with everything. That's because we can be compared to NO other Country. We are 270 million people from the most varied ethnic, religious, cultural, and economic backgrounds as are found anywhere in the world. It follows that we have the best, and worst, of everything.

We're also a pretty open capitol market and we have a basic stance of affording citizens liberty, including their 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. That means that black markets fill every need the criminal element has. The main controls for the private ownership of guns is in place. Black markets are boosted by things like bans.

From gun buyback programs to waiting periods to the Brady law, restrictions beyond the requirement of licensure for both buyer and seller, have been colossal failures. There is also the supposition that the removal of the means mitigates the hate, anger and mission of such fruits. To a degree perhaps that's true but stories abound wherein honest citizens defend themselves with firearms. Stories also exist of women killed by ex husbands and sort who were denied carry licensure. That gunman may have killed less people if his firearms were of lesser capacity but you're assuming that he could not have secured them anyway. Maybe yes, maybe no but if a greater number of law-abiding citizens have their protection banned from them, maybe the price is too high. Only someone like me who stands to lose his job and house for a firearm violation will actually abide by a ban. Criminals and whack jobs skirt bans.

I own a number of guns and I hunt regularly. In fact, I awoke at 4a.m. to slip into my turkey woods just this Tuesday and I was fortunate enough to call in a plump Jake bird that my family consumed last night. Most of the firearm restrictions that are placed, only affect people like me. Each year, things get tighter and tighter and each year, crazy fuckheads go off with firearms. Everytime it happens, I cringe because I know another person is going to hurray for any new gun legislation, no matter how ill concieved and ineffective it may be. In our zeal to feel that we're doing something about such tragedies as sydney mentions, we mostly accomplish little.

I live in a Country where I have the right to keep my guns, but I also live in a media crazed society that replaces logic with whatever the hype of the moment calls for. Not only that, but everyone's first exposure to guns is Bambi. Remember the hunters coming? Birds scatter, squirrels dive for cover as bullets rake the woods. That's the first impression American kids get of hunting and it doesn't get any better. For those of you about to call me over the top, let me ask you to do this:

Name one instance in popular film/media in your lifetime that a white Christian male of European descent is portrayed as a hunter/trapper in a positive light. You can't. You might try Grizzly Adams but he never actually kills anything. In the Last Of the Mohicans, the opening scene depicts natives bowing to give praise to their God for the gift of the elk they kill. I did the same thing in a beautiful New England forest at 6:15 a.m. the day before yesterday.

I mention this because people are generally at a loss to understand why anyone needs a gun. I don't need a gun so why should you? Well you know what? Some people do need guns so be careful before you go voting or hurraying for that ban. I don't need an abortion but maybe perhaps some frightened young lady does. I'm alarmed, very very alarmed at the complacency people demonstrate when their rights are being taken from them. In my opinion, if you don't want a gun in your home, don't have one. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't like trapping, don't set a trap. If you don't like homosexuality, sleep with the opposite sex. If you don't like meat, don't eat it. You don't like fur, don't wear it. Fucking drug screening is commonplace and noone seems to care. It's just a replacement for a valid system of administration and is at once, a slippery slope I'm not so sure we should follow.

From conservative to liberal, both sides here in the States have become too comfortable telling others how to live .

sydney, if you're pleased with your ban and you're willing to forgo the rights of others to maybe stop a Martin Bryant, kudos but in my heart of hearts, I believe you're misguided and your fellow citizens who have had their belongings outlawed, they're fucking livid with the sentiment you forward.

Anyone see Schindler's List? Remember the liberation of the jewish ghettos? Pretty easy to do to an unarmed populace. Let's see a force round up all the folks in the cities and march them all onto cargo trains....yeah, right. I'm not so convinced that a civil war or some such shit couldn't happen even in this Country.

So the short answer to this long-winded question is that I support reasonable restrictions and licensure but not bans. Marijuana, cocaine, LSD....all illegal and banned. Drop me on the streets of NY with a few grand and let's see what I can come up with by day's end.

[sydneyfan]

sydney, if you're pleased with your ban and you're willing to forgo the rights of others to maybe stop a Martin Bryant, kudos but in my heart of hearts, I believe you're misguided and your fellow citizens who have had their belongings outlawed, they're fucking livid with the sentiment you forward.




Hey, that's fine Rosebud. And your partially right - when the gun control laws came in, a section of the population did oppose it. But they were a small minority - I'm guessing that perhaps we just have less gun enthusiasts in Oz compared to the US. The gun laws were all over the news today because of the anniversary, and the PM (we still have the same one 10 years on) was talking about how they were one of his finest achievments in office. And, the reality is that the vast majority of people agree with him. Countless opinion polls show that. Even our opposition parties don't oppose the gun control laws. In fact, there is pressure to make them even tougher.

I think your comment about having the "right" to have a gun is at the heart of this to a degree. Most Australian's wouldn't consider that gun ownership is a "right". I suspect that is a cultural difference.

And thanks for your detailed response. I don't have a particular barrow to push here - just always interested to hear different views on issues like this.

[Rosebud]

Most Australian's wouldn't consider that gun ownership is a "right". I suspect that is a cultural difference.

Yes, and a fundamental difference in our societies. Of course only a small minority opposed your laws, gun owners are a small minory there but does that make it right? I dunno. Maybe we're talking cultural differences again but you know, back 75 years ago, only a small minority thought black folks should be able to eat in restaurants, did that make it right?

I'm just asking you to put yourself in the place of someone who's late father willed you some family pieces. Then the Govt takes them away. How would you feel?

But they were a small minority

Fortunately, we have laws to protect minority representation. Doesn't always work but the Prez can't just ban a class of firearms with one fell swoop.

In fact, there is pressure to make them even tougher.

Why? Still have random shootings/crime ocurring?

Trust me, if something outrageous happens like a Nuke in NY, things could quite possibly turn very very ugly here. I don't know what the fuck I'd do but I'll tell you one thing I won't do and that's march complacently onto a train or truck enroute to a camp.

Oh, and on my quote that you clipped, I'm not partially right, gun owners in your Country are really fucking pissed. I'm certain of it. If you care to justify a too-bad-about-them stance, that's another story but I ask again, put yourself in their shoes. You've never had a freedom voted away from you.

[sydneyfan]

[QUOTE=Rosebud]
Yes, and a fundamental difference in our societies. /QUOTE]


Which is why we are never going to find any common ground on this issue. Like I said, I'm just interested in what others think. This is obviously something that you feel passionate about.

[Campaigner]

35 Dead - 37 Wounded

The current government's been in power for over 10 years now, and I can count the thing on one hand they did right (IMHO). This was one.

Gun crime stats may not have changed significantly (if at all), however the next time some nutbag decides to do this;

"At around 1:30 PM Bryant re-entered the "Broad Arrow Cafe" and removed an AR15 rifle from his bag and commenced firing. Bryant rapidly fired 29 rounds, killing 22 people, 19 from head shots. Bryant then moved to the car park and fired at random people, killing several. He shot and killed the driver of one of the several tour buses parked side by side in the car park and three passengers, as well as several others who were taking cover in and around the buses. At some point Bryant swapped his AR15 for a FN FAL military rifle, kept in the boot of his car, where he also stored a magazine-fed shotgun. Bryant eventually drove his Volvo out of the carpark towards the park entrance. Along the way he left the car and, at point blank range, murdered a mother and her two small children who were trying to escape."

it's gonna be a lot harder with rifles that have to be reloaded after every shot, or handguns which need to be reloaded after every six.

FWIW, responsible people can still buy guns to protect themselves, farmers (the ones who were most up in arms, pardon the pun) can still buy guns to kill wouded livestock or feral animals on their property, but guns such as the ones used by Bryant are out of bounds except in military circumstances;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

Without turning this into a massive debate between friends, let's just say "what works for us, might not work for you" and go back to wishing that Ryan comes out here again for some shows!

[Rosebud]

That's a horrible and highly emotional story Campaigner but your use of it speaks to the emotional response I reference. There's a direct implication that if your PM hadn't banned an entire class of firearms, this would have happened again. It probably wouldn't have. It may still again. I certainly hope not but I could sit here and type all sorts of bans that would save lives provided that they actually work. 27 children die each week on bicycles here in the states and we hand them to kids. EACH and EVERY time an abortion takes place, someone dies and so forth.

You guys are sittin' on an island with less routes for black market trade and probably less domestic production of firearms. Yes, things are different for you and we can agree to disagree but I'll stop by reiterating one thing. You two have never had a once legal activity or freedom taken away from you. I have and it sucks.

....first they came for the guns...

[Chris CO]

I like it as it is in the UK;

Very few few guns in the hands of criminals, limited/restricted use of guns for farmers and none of the public owning them. The police force don't carry them and this in turn makes only the most serious of criminals consider their use. Even then they sometimes don't bother as they known the police wont have them either....the limited times criminals do have guns we have armed response units on the scene.

I would never want to shoot a gun myself, I would feel sick if I shot anything that lives, but that is just me.

Of course there is a certain hypocracy/irony in that I am quite prepared to eat meat from the supermarket but not do what it takes in order for it to get to that stage.....If I had to do that it would turn me into a vegetarian (what a bleeding heart liberal I am).

I couldn't do what you do rosebud, but I am pretty sure you should have the right to hunt for the sake of food (don't agree with it for the sake of trophies). But the gun law in your country is a sick joke.

For the common man in the street who does not hunt game for food or have other validating reasons, there should be NO right to bear arms. It is both an archaic/out-dated notion that no longer applies to a modern country and one at fundamental odds with the right to live- as is seen by your nations statistics on gun related deaths.

Your countries gun laws are a complete mess and they need radical reform....but you shouldn't be affected in that.......that is my tupence worth of European thoughts.

[sydneyfan]

That's a horrible and highly emotional story Campaigner but your use of it speaks to the emotional response I reference. There's a direct implication that if your PM hadn't banned an entire class of firearms, this would have happened again. It probably wouldn't have. It may still again.

....first they came for the guns...

What other type of response should we have to an imcident like that? And, as campaigner said, our gun laws are not based on the belief that we will stop all gun related crime. We may be on our island, but we're not stupid.
They are designed to make it more difficult for the Martin Bryant's of this world to kill so many people in such a short space of time. And you're right, it may well happen again. But whats the alternative? Do nothing?

[foggy]

Myself, I'd like to see stricter gun laws here in the states.

If I had to do that it would turn me into a vegetarian (what a bleeding heart liberal I am).

Haha, bleeding heart liberal #2 here - and a vegetarian to boot. I'd better get out of this thread. ;)

[Blossom]

I'm too drunk to give an really good response, but I can say this: i'm fine with hunting, even though I don't eat meat. i esp. like it when people eat what they kill.

BUT i am in favor of "gun control." in the sense that all those semi-automatic assault rifles need to be gotten rid of. their only purpose is to kill large amounts of people in a short period of time...

i don't buy the whole "guns don't kill people people kill people" b.s.

people WITH guns have a lot easier time killing people than people w/o guns...

having said that, Rosebud, damn just yesterday I cleared the house of the b b guns and airsoft guns cause thank god my boys are finally out of their gun fascination stage.

if i had known...

Rosebud: I have a question for you...would you go hunting with Dick Cheney? LOL!!!

[sydneyfan]

Interesting article here which discusses the difference in US and Aust. cultural attitudes towards guns and the impact of our gun laws a decade on.


http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/04/13/australia.portarthur.guns/

[jenna]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this, as I'm not as knowledgeable about the topic as I should be but I thought I'd share some discussion points with you:

we have a gun registry act that costs taxpayers only slightly less than the entire amount we spend on missle defence - in other words, a heck of a lot of moola went to the registry which we were told would only cost a couple million because of offsetting registration revenue. However, annual costs are now on the decline.

there was a number of murders involving firearms and gangs in the fall of last year in Toronto. None of the firearms involved in the murders were registered.

my friend, who is a police officer, is a staunch Conservative while I'm his flaky, pot-smoking, left leaning, peacenik friend. However, we both strongly believe that we need to get the kids off the street by increasing the funding to after school programs.

I don't know what the solution is - all I know is that when I was growing up, we never locked our door. Now we all have deadbolts and alarm systems.

[Rosebud]

Sydney, please credit me with recognizing the differences between our cultures and our geographic locations. You folks don't have the number of black market avenues that we do so maybe a ban is more effective in your Country. When you ask what should be done, I say keeping any product legal and restricted is far more effective than all-out bans. I'll say it agin in case ya'll missed it. Cocaine Marijuana and LSD, all banned. Illegal to grow/produce/sell. I can buy all the quantities here in the States as I wish. You know what I can't get in any quantity I wish? Prescription medications. They're legal but restricted. being legally prescribed keeps them from being huge black market products.

There is a price to be paid for liberty.

There is a price to be paid for liberty.

I said that twice because it's at the heart of what I say. It's understandable that we wish to "do something" when a tragedy happens. What I question is whether what we do is actually accomplishing what we want and even then, at what cost? As I said before, eliminating bicycles would save many lives.

BUT i am in favor of "gun control." in the sense that all those semi-automatic assault rifles need to be gotten rid of. their only purpose is to kill large amounts of people in a short period of time...

Blossom, this speaks to your alienation with firearms and I hear it stated often. YOU have no use for them so you feel free to decide that others don't. Killing a large number of people is NOT the ONLY reason for them. There are many shooting sports individuals, including women, who shoot competitively ahnd it's what they do. Not my cup 'O tea but it's theirs....and I cannot keep from returning to the abortion issue because I know of very few gun grabbing liberals who rally against abortion. Perhaps you do but the point is that rarely does a gun sale result in death, EACH abortion does.

I say keep guns and abortion legal. I cannot imagine choosing abortion in my life just as you coudn't imagine having high powered guns in yours. To have liberty, we need to accept that others may not like what we do and we may not like what they do. Majority opinion is not always justified....as in my reference to blacks earlier in this century.

When campaigner says "hunting" guns are still legal, I wonder what he means. Single shot, breach loading shotguns, rifles? just what is legal? I ask because if one was to load up 4 or 5 shotguns holding 5 rounds each, it would still be possible to weild a great deal of havoc upon a crowd.

[Chris CO]

People have the right to hold differing views as is their prerogative (stating the fucking obvious) and this has been a really interesting thread.

I myself see a great deal of validity in what are almost diametrically opposed viewpoints. I empathize with both sides in differing ways, certainly this is a discussion of greys rather than black and whites and is as much about the practicality of bans and restriction as anything else. It is sad that there are such disturbed people in this word that makes this a conversation at all, albeit an interesting one.

One thing though Rosebud, I think you are over-egging the pudding a great deal in some of your associations, I think it is highly tenuous for example to compare abortion and gun control. I just think those kinds of parallels are a little absurd and smack a little of semantics....IMHO, not that it makes much difference as I think the validity exists elsewhere in your thoughts. I say like my opinion has any gravitas (it means sod all).

All is fair in love and war I guess and perhaps the other side is guilty of similar shenanigans. I’ll bugger off and lower my head below the metaphorical parapet before it gets shot off.

P.S

I would be devastated if someone took away my sports/passions, because of a miniscule minority of deranged loners (thankfully you can’t do too much damage with a tennis racquet or football), but likewise I would devastated if someone took away the life of a loved one :(

But enough dark thoughts…..Black comedy time?

You best be careful in what you say to Rosebud because if you recall he is the one with the gun :D

Soorrrrry Rosebuddy :o

[kees]

Oh well, as long as he doesn't shoot the fishies.........



KAYCEE
FISH INJECTION SYRINGES ("GUNS")



http://www.vetcare.gr/vax_inj_2.jpg

[Campaigner]

When campaigner says "hunting" guns are still legal, I wonder what he means. Single shot, breach loading shotguns, rifles? just what is legal? I ask because if one was to load up 4 or 5 shotguns holding 5 rounds each, it would still be possible to weild a great deal of havoc upon a crowd.

I'm not sure I implied 'hunting' guns per se, because I'm more than a little drunk at the moment ("bring in prohibition", the naysayers scream!), but semi-automatic and automatic firearms were banned and those owning them were compentsated (not fairly though) for their re-acquisition.

As for rifles, and without doing any research, I think single shot rifles are still allowed, however only certain types. That means you couldn't sit on a hill with sniper-calibre rifles and pinpoint your targets (unless you've been on the olympic shooting team and are a crackshot, ala Marty McFly).

In all honesty, Martin Bryant had a bag full of guns and would've caused devestation no matter what. However, in today's environment with today's laws - to kill the amount of people he did would take a hell of a lot more time than it did and more likely than not, he would've been apprehended before harming the amount of people he did. But damage still would've been done.

Also, and maybe it's because in my over-liquidated state I'm a bit more paranoid than normal, I consider myself to politically lie slightly left of centre (with an open view to all issues), but don't think that just because I hold a different view to anyone on here that I don't respect or appreciate their views. Imagine a sociaety where everyone's views were the same? Boring as bat shit. Bring on the debate (and a few more beers to match!). From what I've gathered so far, this maybe the most sensible internet discussion board ever. Keep up the good work!

[sydneyfan]

I find it interesting that the one person in this thread who keeps banging on about their rights and personal liberty is the one person who seems to have difficulty with the concept that others also have the right to a different opinion.

For the record, the rate of guns of all types used in crime in Australia has fallen since the gun bans. Fact. Also fact - in the decade prior to Port Arthur there were four mass killings (defined as 3 or more victims) using semi or semiautomatic weapons. In the decade since, there have been none.
We don't need to allow guns to be legal and restricted. We just ban them. And it works - at least for us. Which was my point right from the very begining.

I would also agree with Chris that arguments that somehow toss gun control in with abortion, black rights and the possibilty of civil war don't exactly make for a strong case. Yes, sometimes the majority get it wrong, at least for a little while. But if you can come up with a workable political system that pleases every single citizen, every single time, then go for it. Democracy might not be perfect, but it seems to be working out okay for most of us.

As for liberty having a price - if you mean to imply that mass shootings are the price your society has to pay so you have the freedom to go around blowing the heads off turkeys every weekend, then good luck to you.

Or perhaps you mean that restricting gun ownership is the first step towards greater government control, a foot on the path to tyranny. If so, your argument is really about a lot more than gun control, isn't it?

[Chris CO]

I think opinion on this will just become entrenched on both sides High hat cymbal Tshhhh

No seriously there comes a point when these type of debates start to simply polarize opinion further, especially when neither side of a divide particularly empathizes with either sides perspective.

A guy likes hunting and doesn’t want his ability to pursue his sport infringed, a gal worries about people getting shot and has concerns that lie in gun control.

Neither of you is being unreasonable in your differing view so it shouldn’t come to a catfight

This is a nice Ryan Adams forum you know. :)

[sydneyfan]

I didn't start this thread with the intention of getting into an argument. I've said my piece now (finally, they all cheer!!) so will do my best to be quiet.
If you look at the first couple of posts in this tread though, I dont think it was me who set the tone of this debate.